Psychologist Lyudmila Petranovskaya spoke in an interview with mobbingu.net about why it is dangerous to ignore bullying among children and adolescents, and how adults can help children in situations of mobbing/bullying.
Daria Nevskaya: Almost all of us have been through bullying and persecution. Most people are left with unresolved psychological trauma from childhood or as an adult. However, people often pretend not to understand what I'm talking about when I talk about mobbing/bullying as a teenager or in the workplace. And I don't believe them at this point. In order to understand the problem, it is enough to abandon the avoidance strategy and strain your memory, remembering the bad things that happened to all of us at school, in the pioneer camp and in the yard. You can also recall how difficult it was for us at work when we were young professionals. And some of my interlocutors don't need to remember anything, as they are under pressure and putting up with humiliation at their workplace right now, not admitting the fact of emotional abuse. But following an avoidance strategy, adults tend to downplay the role of mobbing/bullying in the lives of children and adolescents, attributing aggression to a “difficult” age and even some “tradition”.
Lyudmila, what should we do about the total non-recognition of the topic of mobbing/bullying in society as the most important topic that requires extensive coverage and prevention - from school and institute to office and production? How can we explain to people that the topic of bullying and persecution can become urgent for them at any time?
Lyudmila Petranovskaya: I have seen studies that say that the consequences of serious child mobbing are comparable to and sometimes worse than those resulting from domestic violence. It should be understood that mobbing/bullying is not just unpleasant experiences that have long been and gone; it is an extremely traumatic experience that has delayed consequences. But here we must distinguish between two types of confrontation with a group.
Each of us goes through the necessary period of confrontation with the group as we grow up. People who have never been in such a confrontation are people of a conformist personality type. Of course, you can live your whole life without ever confronting a group, but you pay the price for that — lack of maturity and lack of individuation. You're going to do whatever the band wants you to do. You could do it that way. But if a person has values, personal plans, and ambitions, he is likely to start confronting with his close group — family, friends, peers, and society. Confrontation for teenagers is a necessary moment of initiation when you break out of the group as a whole, a community and realize that you can do without its support and approval and maintain your “separateness”. This does not mean that you will always be a hermit — after that you will be able to safely enter new groups or continue to be in the old one, defending your right to be yourself. After experiencing the experience of being “separate”, you will understand that going against a group without breaking up is a necessary element of growing up and developing. The group will always respond to your behavior with bewilderment, aggression, and the threat of expulsion. It's almost like ethology. As you know, the band doesn't like it when someone breaks out. She prefers to act as one. If a person can withstand and maintain all this, they will feel more confident in the future, especially if the confrontation cost “little blood”, without serious violence, and if they managed to reach a new level of relations with the group.
But there is a difference between a situation where a person is ready to oppose himself to a group, when he has the resources to defend his opinion, positions, and values, and a situation where the confrontation was not chosen by the person himself for his internal reasons. Problems begin when the group forces him into this role, and he is not yet ready for this due to his age or lack of personal resources. A person is sometimes not ready to withstand this confrontation, for example, when they are weakened by an illness (even the flu and its consequences), when they are experiencing the loss of loved ones, when their parents divorce, when they are adjusting to a new school or class.
In other words, when his stress was due to reasons that had nothing to do with this group. In these situations, he would not do it himself - no one gets involved in a “war on two fronts” voluntarily. A person can have two “basic conditions”: either they have a shortage of resources, then they rather need peace, care, replenishment of resources, and a sense of belonging to a group, or they are full of energy and “in a resource”, then they can solve the problems of their individuation, their choices and goals. Let's imagine a situation where a person does not want personal growth at all now, but only wants peace and “licking his wounds”. If at this moment he finds himself in a dysfunctional group that seeks to strengthen its cohesion by bullying a member of the team who already has a broken “resource reservoir”, a situation of brutal persecution with far-reaching consequences may arise.
We must be aware that any group (community, community) is a very powerful thing. It has both a dark and a bright side: it can protect you, powerfully support you and create a warm space in which to recover, and it can also finish you off if it thinks you are dangerous and harmful. And if she herself is dysfunctional — she does not have enough healthy cohesion and needs someone to eat, then in this situation pathological bullying occurs with the most traumatic consequences. Moreover, this will no longer be an initiation experience from which you come out stronger and more complete, but a “bad story” that leads to trauma and a chronic “hole”. The person leaves injured, with losses, he now has painful “nerve nodes”, and if life again places him in similar circumstances, trigger situations, he will most likely fail. In a normal confrontation, a person does not need the help of a psychotherapist - they may need the support of friends or family, or read good books, watch movies, in other words, they will need relationships and cultural resources to recover. And after a bullying initiated by a group, all this may not be enough and you will need to work out this experience with a psychotherapist.
PHD: Lyudmila, is it worth conducting preventive conversations with children, preparing them for the fact that they may find themselves in a situation of bullying and persecution in any role? Should children who have not yet experienced this remain in the dark or should they be warned about the likelihood of such a scenario? For example, starting a conversation about mobbing/bullying when a child involuntarily finds himself at risk — he goes to a new class or must return to his class after an illness, where a lot has changed; or when his parents divorce or starts wearing glasses or veneers; or the child is just doing very well and reaching out in class, ignoring the laughs in class and the annoyance he is doing very well in class and reaching out to the classroom, ignoring the laughter in class and the annoyance that he is doing very well. causes its activity among classmates. I'm now listing situations in which a group can “appoint” a child to play the role of a “white crow” and a “scapegoat”. Before the bullying breaks out, should parents talk to their child about what they are doing in the face of the development of different mobbing scenarios?
L.P.: When nothing happens yet, all conversations are perceived as follows: “Well, does someone have this somewhere, but what do I have to do with it?”. You can use the information context rich in this topic. In this sense, it is very good that there are now many books and films for teenagers on this topic. It is also enough for a person to simply know the name of a phenomenon and see by some example that this is not the norm. You need to tell the child: “It's not certain that this will happen to you or in front of you, but it does happen sometimes and it's unacceptable.” These concepts — mobbing/bullying, bullying, emotional abuse and aggression — should be part of the child's conceptual circle. At least he'll know that name and be able to recognize the symptoms. It's like heatstroke or acute appendicitis: we may never experience it in our lives, but we need to know the symptoms.
PHD: We usually draw children's attention to the roles of “victim” and “aggressor” because we assume that our children may find themselves in these roles. But what about those guys who are most often in the role of an observer? A child can witness bullying during all school years. How traumatic is this experience for the child? How do you talk about it with your child?
L.P.: It is very important for witnesses that they compare what they saw in the film or read in the book with what is happening in their classroom and realize: “Listen, this is what is happening here!” The richness of the context with relevant information about bullying is very important for witnesses. The victim is unlikely to doubt what is happening to her — her feelings will tell you that unmistakably. You can't help the aggressor this way. It's a different story. But for witnesses, including teachers who often take a detached position, for parents who do not attach importance to this and think that nothing terrible is happening, it is very important to be able to recognize the situation. Adults usually describe the bullying of one child by a group of classmates with the following words: “Well, we didn't get along... this is the age... they're kids... everyone went through it...” It is very important for them to have a name for this situation. And when information about bullying constantly catches a person's eye, it really works.
PHD: Lyudmila, could you tell us more about the consequences of a lack of experience in bullying for a victim who has endured bullying for many years, for an aggressor who has deftly avoided punishment for all these years, as well as for a witness who still does not understand what he was faced with. What does the future hold for them?
L.P.: There are different witnesses — either they are paralyzed by fear and do nothing to avoid being in the victim's shoes at some point. And there are witnesses who take the position of the “six” under the aggressor. A situation of violence always drives a person into a pseudo-choice: either you are a victim or an aggressor, or victimization or identification with the aggressor. The situation of violence itself creates this “fork” when it seems that there is no other option but this. A child, or even an adult, who finds himself in this situation and does not have enough personal resources at that moment may decide that this is how the whole world works: there are strong and then weak, and strong people mock the weak. This is a distorted picture that all victims of violence, rapists and witnesses see. And in this sense, the picture of the victim and the picture of the rapist are no different.
The child is more vulnerable in this situation because he is not yet able to contrast it with a different picture of the world. An adult has this picture of the world if he has already experienced bullying as a child, or if he has now lost ground under his feet for some reason. And this picture is the crux of the problem. Children in a group in a situation of violence can change roles — becoming victims, then rapists, then witnesses. They can go from being a witness who feels sorry for the victim to be a witness who encourages the victim to humility and victimize, and vice versa. If the victim is removed from the group, any bystander yesterday could become a victim. If a tougher rapist joins the group, yesterday's rapist could become a victim. Roles may change, but the scenario in which a dysfunctional group exists is important. And the consequences for everyone will be bad.
If we talk about a victim and a sympathetic witness, they will have the same consequences as after any other psychological trauma. This will be post-traumatic syndrome with all its manifestations: psychosomatic, anxiety, depressive disorders, with panic attacks in situations that resemble past experience, with impaired physical health, with the inability to act reasonably in situations that are trigger. Since the trauma occurred in a situation of social interaction, the triggers are also likely to be social — that is, the situation of a new group (class, place of work, company), a competitive situation, a situation of public attention, etc. And then a person can follow different scenarios: someone will drown in post-traumatic experiences, increasingly subordinating their lives to them, and someone will cut them off, trying to become, as it were, invulnerable and “don't care”, but in fact, also subordinating their lives to this goal. Each of them has its own manifestations and consequences, and they work with this in psychotherapy.
When it comes to aggressors, it also happens in different ways.
The aggressor is often a former victim. A child who is beaten at home, devalued or humiliated will beat the weaker ones at school. The aggressor can also be a child who will be loved and praised at home, but making it clear that he will be in demand only in a certain capacity. The boy, the hero of the French film “The Toy”, is a real buller whose father loves and pampers, but lets him know that there is a narrow corridor within which a child can arrange him. His father shows him examples of sadistic bullying, enjoying the effect—an episode when they buy a house from their family and drive the hosts out of the dining table. Such a child is very likely to become an aggressor unless he meets someone who can give him a different model of relationships.
There are also (much less common) sociopathic aggressors who have impaired the formation of conscience and empathy. But they're usually not bullying frontmen. The frontman will be beaten but strong. And a sociopath is more likely to become a behind-the-scenes organizer and a “power behind the throne”. But they are also the most ruthless; they do not stop at any form of humiliation and incision to suicide. They manipulate the group, involving witnesses as aggressors, blaming everyone, and adults trying to understand what's going on. And they often come out unscathed, because formally they “had nothing to do with it” and even “wanted to help”.
PHD: It happens that children at some point start studying without the same enthusiasm. In elementary school, they still want to answer, reach out, invite them to participate in competitions and Olympiads, and then, suddenly, it's like cutting them off. They don't finish their homework and don't finish reading books, and they lose interest in knowledge. How can parents understand why the child has stopped being diligent in studying? Perhaps the reason is that children are stuck between the high demands of their parents and a class that hates upstarts and “nerds”. And then they lock themselves in the sink and from there look at the world with utter indifference. We want kids to be the best, but they'll be constantly reminded all their lives that standing out is ugly and you can even get hurt for it. What should parents do?
L.P.: First of all, who even said that everything needs to be done? Why should I finish reading any book? For example, this introduced philological attitude towards the text really hinders me, that I must finish reading the book. I saved a lot of time by allowing myself to skip reading some books that I don't like. There are a lot of different things that may not be worth finishing, or maybe they are worth it. One of the important components of training is that we must learn to distinguish between tasks that need to be completed and tasks that, the sooner you quit, the more time and effort you will save. This is an important skill for an adult. As for an environment in which a child cannot be himself and is forced to mimic... You see, it's cruel to put a child in a pool with crocodiles and wonder why he doesn't frolic with them and swim in a beautiful “rabbit”, but huddles into a corner. It seems to me that in a situation where it is not safe for a child to be who he is, and in this case it is to be, for example, a “nerd”, parents need to move him to a different environment where he can be himself. Unfortunately, I say from my own experience: at one time, we underestimated the seriousness of our child's situation and hoped for too long that “everything would work out” and talked when to act.
PHD: And if parents are unable to take their child out of this class for some reason, should they teach him to adapt to this situation, for example, to lie low and not reveal his presence or... become one of the “crocodiles”?
L.P.: If you can get crocodiles out of the pool, you should definitely do it. It's not always possible to change schools, but you can rein in the “crocodiles” to make them quieter, for example, get the adults responsible for these children to intervene in the situation.
PHD: You can also intervene in different ways... Some parents, for example, without the support of teachers and school administration, start engaging in arbitrariness. There was a case in Riga when a police officer himself punished his daughter's buller. He came to class and flogged it with a belt. He simply had no other means of restraining the aggressor.
L.P.: There are situations, for example, in yards, when an older brother or dad comes out and warns and frighten offenders. It is the basic function of a family to protect its members. For this reason, children from large families are rarely bullied. If his classmates know that he has five more siblings in different classes, they are unlikely to cling to him. Another question is how wise is it to treat bullying with violence and humiliation? In your example, dad identified with the aggressor and showed the children that every aggressor has a stronger aggressor. It did not change the picture of children's world. The picture of the world that we have already talked about has only been strengthened. Although his daughter saw her father's willingness to help her, the very picture of the world, in which the strong is always right, was entrenched in her mind. And if there's someone who can beat dad, what then? All these ideas about protecting your family members are only good if there is a show of strength without humiliation.
When it comes to pre-adolescence, the nature of the group is largely determined by the adult responsible for this group, i.e. the teacher. And there is no point in doing anything with the children in such a group until there is an adult who takes responsibility for the relationships and rules in this group. My experience shows that in elementary school, bullying is somehow inspired by an adult. The teacher gives some signals to children who are very loyal to him at this age. These signals inspire children to bully someone the teacher doesn't like. Accordingly, if we want to pacify our “crocodiles”, we need to find their “trainer”. And these power fights should be carried out with the “trainer”, and not with the “crocodile” greyhound himself.
But adults often shove off this responsibility because they don't know how to do it; they simply don't know how to resolve conflict situations. The fact is that adults often either had this experience themselves as children or are simply helpless in the face of children's group dynamics. I once wrote a series of posts “Kids in cages” (see on our website http://mobbingu.net/articles/detail/63/ et http://mobbingu.net/articles/detail/62/ ) exactly about the typical mistakes adults make when they confuse bullying with unpopularity, when they try to solve a problem by praising the victim or arousing pity for her. None of this works.
PHD: You're right, a lot of things in this situation depend on adults. The atmosphere in the classroom can change for the better when a new subject teacher appears who is able to inspire interest in his subject, or an authoritative adult (psychologist, coach) joins the group and children will trust...
L.P.: Yes, it is quite possible. A person comes in with a different picture of the world and shows that it is possible to build relationships in a completely different way and use a different way of interacting. And suddenly it turns out that this method is healthier, more pleasant, more interesting, and children adapt to it. Bullying is a disease of a dysfunctional group and few people know how to treat it, but it is important for adults to be able to accept responsibility for the fact that “crocodiles” bit someone. And they will not be to blame for this when they are 7-10 years old — you, an adult, will be to blame for this. Sometimes the intervention of an authoritative adult magically humbles the bloodlust of the “crocodiles” one day. This doesn't mean that the victim will feel good and happy in this pool now, but at least his life won't be hell.
But it is very difficult to find a teacher who would take responsibility. As a parent, I've faced this. It is very difficult to interact with the school. Teachers fold their paws and say that “kids like that now”. What are the “ones”?
For example, I failed to involve a teacher in solving the problem of bullying my child. She “turned on the fool”, clapped her eyes and said, “What can I do? Well, for some reason children behave like this...” I went to see the principal and she started telling me that “there is only one teacher, but there are many of them”. And then I asked the question: “Do I understand correctly that your teaching staff is unable to cope with the situation of emotional abuse against a child?” Something went through her head in there. “Oh, is that what you're asking?” , she asked me. I've confirmed that this is the case. And she promised to figure it out. I don't know what happened there, but a few days later my daughter said that the children were quieter. She didn't feel well there anyway, but at least it was tolerable, and we waited the time before moving to another school.
PHD: Look at how absurd the situation is. Nurses are taught how to behave in a situation where a patient is raging, flight attendants are taught how to deal with aggressive and dissatisfied passengers, and no pedagogical university in the country prepares teachers for extraordinary situations, for situations of aggression and violence that constantly occur in schools in all age groups.
L.P.: Yes, teachers are often helpless against emotional abuse and aggression by teenagers. And because they are helpless and unable to manage a group, they resort to cheap tricks, namely, they use violent situations for disciplinary purposes. For example, mobbing can be a way to rally a class against someone who's not, who's stupid, funny, gets in the way of a teacher, gets into trouble.
PHD: Some parents, even in an obvious situation of bullying, do not take their child out of class, arguing that they do not want to develop a “victim syndrome” in order for the child to learn how to deal with difficulties in life on his own. Would you recommend that these parents pick up their child from school in any bullying situation?
L.P.: You can't ask a question like that. Whether or not to pick up a child from school depends on so many components: there is a child with his own characteristics and way of behaving. There are children who are more flexible and able to come to terms with everyone, but there are children who find it difficult to communicate in this situation; there are different schools and different classes. So the first thing to do is try to fix the situation. Maybe the teacher didn't pay attention to what was going on, and then she should let her know.
When a new boy came to class at another school where we transferred our daughter, the children did not accept him. The beginnings of bullying have appeared. The teachers immediately noticed that they started working, and the situation improved after a while. The boy didn't change, but the band found a way to interact with him. So the smartest thing to do is try to change the situation right now, and this can be done by adults who work with this group.
If you assume that it's about your child that he is communicating in a different way, that turns children against himself or is not clever enough to communicate, then, of course, you should think about “upgrading” the child. This may be working with a psychologist, working in a children's psychological group, but the child does not have to hit the ground and become an ace of communication from tomorrow. It may take him years to “upgrade” skills that are innately weak.
PHD: But this would require parents to acknowledge that it's not about the group, it's about their child. And parents are rarely able to admit that their children have psychological problems.
L.P.: This is not the case when it comes to just one person — or a child or a team. This is a complex problem. Yes, there are children who will never be bullied even in a dysfunctional group. They communicate so cleverly that it won't affect them. There are children who, at the slightest group dysfunction, will fall into this situation. There are groups that are sure to find someone to bully, and there are groups that, even with very problematic participants, will not bully them. There are situations where a person will never be a victim of bullying, but there are situations in which the same person is at great risk. There are no clear and simple answers.
But there are some things you should do quickly. For example, you can revive a teacher in one conversation, reminding him of his responsibility for the group. Or in two conversations — with the teacher and with the principal. Or in three conversations — with the teacher, the principal and the Department of Education. We're going up the stairs until we find an adult to take responsibility. You can also pick up your child from school quickly, but the limit of such decisions is limited — you won't have to change school every time. There are things that need to be worked on for years: developing the child's communication skills. But we need to somehow live during these years as well.
PHD: There are situations when children categorically refuse to move to another class or school, arguing that here they at least know what to expect from their rapists. They have managed to adapt to them, but in their new place it remains to be seen what awaits them...
L.P.: Yes, this is a really big problem. The child thinks he can already foresee the frills of his torturers, but at the new school he still doesn't know what he'll face. Apparently, adults should make the decision in these situations. I don't think we should have waited so long then, listening to the child say that “everything is fine”. Children are really afraid to move to another school. And then the kids don't think that the whole school is a nightmare. They may like a teacher or a subject at school, or have a good time with the kids at a club, or on the sports ground... And if there are serious forms of bullying that turn into physical violence (they ruin things, beat them, torment them, drive them to hysteria), then in these situations, it is urgent to draw attention to the situation of those who should be responsible for this group. And, if the intervention of responsible adults does not help, then pick it up.
PHD: There's Gary Schmidt's great teen novel “Wednesday Battles”
(translated by O. Varshaver). The hero is a boy who is absolutely convinced that Mrs. Baker's teacher hates him. She's really strict with him and she's demanding. Like the character himself, the reader does not immediately understand that in fact she is his true friend, senior comrade and mentor. And the boy comes home and complains to all his family that “Mrs. Baker hates him.” The family amicably shrugs off his complaints. However, in other families, a mother can immediately react to such words from her son or daughter and go to school to make a scandal and may even demand the dismissal of the teacher or transfer the child to another school. And the child is actually manipulating his parents, as he only thinks that Mrs. Baker or “Marivanovna” is biased against him. Let's say he anticipates the teacher's complaints about his behavior and poor grades in this way.
How can parents recognize a genuine threat and distinguish it from the fantasies of a child who sometimes enjoys playing the role of a “victim”?
L.P.: Parents usually imagine what their child knows and what he is capable of. If a child manipulates parents, it means that he absolutely does not trust them and has a distorted attachment to them. And if that's the case, no grades matter anymore. I don't really understand why parents care about low grades the most. They should be concerned if the teacher offends and humiliates the child.
PHD: Should parents teach their children to defend their boundaries when dealing with adults — to boldly respond to boorish attacks from adults, to be able to say “no” when necessary? Despite the fact that there is a danger that the development of this “skill” may also affect relationships with the parents themselves...
L.P.: I think these are different categories of parents — those who teach children to resist aggression and protect themselves, and those who allow this to happen to their child. They will not teach this to their children, but will associate themselves with the school.
PHD: But there is a type of violence that cannot even be called violence in the usual sense of the word. I mean authoritarian upbringing, pressure on children, which is very common in loving and intelligent families. Parents themselves do not tolerate children contradicting them, and they perceive the child's defending his boundaries as a “rebellion on a ship”.
L.P.: Life makes a child say “no” from the age of two or three. The question is how the child himself will react to the opportunities that have opened up. Let's say he may be afraid that his reaction will destroy the warm relationship with his parents. There are different kinds of intolerant parents' reactions: “If you say no, you'll get it from me”, “if you say no to me, you're no longer my child, and I'll let you understand it in every possible way”, or “if you say no to me, you'll destroy me, I'll be unhappy.” Of course, such reactions can discourage a child from saying no. It is important for the child to understand that nothing terrible will happen if he learns to say no to parents and defend his borders, even if there is a conflict, everyone will remain intact and the relationship will remain intact.
PHD: Lyudmila, how can we combine the demand of psychologists for the victim not to self-blame with the fact that a person must critically review their previous experience so as not to repeat old mistakes in a new place? This issue is more relevant to situations of bullying among adults.
L.P.: Another question, “is it the victim's fault that she was walking through an empty park at night and being raped”? No, the rapist and only him are to blame for the rape she was raped. But this does not mean that walking along the dark alleys of a park in a criminally troubled area in the evenings is a good idea. By the way, the length of the skirt, as studies show, does not play any role. It's pretty obvious that if a criminal wants to rape someone, he doesn't care what kind of skirt the victim wears. The impulse does not come from the skirt, but from within the rapist, and he will look for the victim in a place where the chances of success increase — in the dark and deserted. The court, of course, will find the rapist guilty, and the darkness, and the park, and even a skirt will not become mitigating circumstances. But to take care of yourself, you should assess the risks when you walk through a deserted place in the evening.
The victim is not to blame for the violence against her. But reducing risks in the future and thinking about what you can do to prevent violence or stop it quickly, if it is just beginning to develop, is very useful for the victim. Moreover, there is no victim who would not do this. When trauma therapy is being treated, one always considers not only what the bad thing happened, but also what the person did reasonably and how they tried to protect themselves. And this is emphasized in therapy as its resource part.
So when we talk about guilt, we're making a victim again. When we talk about what depends on a person in this situation, we are referring to their strong point. It is not the victim's fault for the bullying. But if there is a risk of being bullied again in the future, you should take care to reduce risks and learn how to behave effectively.
PHD: A question that is often asked by injured people is “Should we move forward and upward? The world once lived without my special contribution and will continue to live on...” Post-traumatic stress is often uncertain about your abilities, and you live with an eye on those who can tell you at any moment that you really aren't that good, that those who showed you the door were right. And how do you overcome these doubts and fears as adults, and do children have the same doubts and fears after an injury?
L.P.: Of course they master it. One of the consequences of an injury can be suicide risk and thoughts about “it would be better if I hadn't been there at all”. And in a situation where trauma is socially related, even a loving family can't always help. Family acceptance is so unconditional and that's why the child devalues it: “Yes, my parents love me, but where can they go? And the big world will never accept me because I'm such a social freak.” Sooner or later, the age of separation from the family comes when the family cannot meet all the needs of a teenager and implement his plans. He needs to go out into the big world he's already learned he'll never accept. And then anxiety and depressive disorders and suicidal thoughts appear. Instead of exploring the world of social connections, people want to fill themselves in a hole and never get out of there.
PHD: I think that in this situation, parents need to find an older friend for their child, a friend who would not be a member of the family and, at the same time, would be from a world that did not accept him...
L.P.: Yes, this task is good for a mentor, who can be a teacher, coach, psychologist, neighbor, head of a studio or club. This is great. The mentor's approval is not unconditional, unlike the parent's. The mentor will also notice the “jambs” and talk about the merits. And his attention and interest in the child can be very important.
PHD: Lyudmila, let's talk about the role that literature, cinema and theater can play in therapy. I once attended a round table in which psychologists took part and discussed children's literature. And I've heard people say that books and movies don't play a big role in detecting bullying and in therapy. I don't agree with this at all. Every year, wonderful books are published, mostly by foreign authors, in which a child or teenager can see themselves in a mirror and identify familiar situations, understanding how to act to get out of harm with the least losses. In addition, it seems to me that a closed child, reading and discussing a book with parents, can open up. What do you think is the role of literature and cinema in mobbing therapy?
L.P.: These books are different. Take The Endless Book, for example. The story of being an outcast, but then something extraordinary and magical happened to you, and you had a special experience that helped you become cool and you saved everyone. This is, in principle, such a normal initiation dream about a superman, but in reality it does not help much in a situation of bullying and isolation: you sit there doing nothing, but only dream of becoming a superhero and everyone gasps. But in reality, a magician will not come and reward you with any magical property, and you will sit, plunging deeper and deeper into a pseudo-autistic state from which it is difficult to get out.
There is also a type of literature that analyzes bullying as a phenomenon. For example, Vladimir Zheleznikov's “The Scarecrow”, which shows what is happening to the organizers and participants of the bullying, but, in fact, there is no way out there.
PHD: But there are also other books for teenagers. These are books mainly by Scandinavian, Canadian and English authors, which give examples of ways out of the most advanced situations of bullying, books in which a cruel world seems to give children no chance to preserve their individuality and escape. But they teach that it is possible to find a way out of even the most advanced situations if the child acts and resists. Among these cruel but hopeful books are my three favorites: “Black Swan Meadow” by David Mitchell, “The Miracle” by R.J. Palacio, and “The Pits” by L. Sashar. And the list of such wonderful books that can help a child when he is confused and does not know what to do is constantly expanding (see the list on our website) http://mobbingu.net/articles/detail/240/ - approx. D.N.).
I analyzed, for example, why so many teenage fanfiction appeared for Stace Kramer's book 50 Days Before I Suicide, and why it is so popular among teenagers aged 12-14. This book shows the world as our children see it, but that we adults know nothing about. We can only imagine how scary and crazy it can be. I talked about this topic with teenagers who read the book. They said that they liked it how honestly and harshly everything about their lives was told. They also liked the fact that the heroine finds the strength to cope with a hopeless situation. As you know, she doesn't commit suicide. And the guys told me that they see such heroines around them and face similar situations. And the more severe the situation described in the book, the closer it is to the real experiences of teenagers, the more it can help them. In addition, in the company of such characters, a teenager will not feel alone.
L.P.: And it seemed to me that this book had too much concentration of all misfortunes and horrors. It's just incredible that all this would happen in 50 days in the life of an ordinary girl from a fairly ordinary family. But maybe I just don't have a good idea of the real situation. As I understand it, teenagers react differently.
PHD: Yes, and they have a sense of belonging, because, by their own admission, they are always “walking on the edge” “taking risks”, although everyone around them may simply not know or notice that stories happen in their lives every day that just ask for such a book or leave its pages. Perhaps this perception of their lives by teenagers is due to the projection of movies and games that are violent, and the truth is on the side of the strong and merciless.
L.P.: The fact is that there are no initiation practices in modern society, but there is a need for initiation, and they are offered to take the Unified State Exam in the form of initiation. That's why they find all sorts of adventures on their own, and they are attracted to everything that tells about such extreme experiences. What are these initiation practices about? About the fact that you went through them and didn't collapse, you felt bad, hurt, scared, but you survived. Who would want a child to feel bad, hurt and scared right now?
PHD: Were there more opportunities for initiation when we were kids?
L.P.: We grew up in a much less troubled world. There's too much anxiety around right now. Parents are very afraid for their children and what our parents allowed us back then is not allowed to children now. And many of these practices went in between, when children were wandering around in the yard, getting into risky situations, somehow overcoming them without even telling their parents what happened to them. And now it turns out that we just keep them in cotton wool until the age of 12, and then we would like to...
At the same time, they are hit by a barrage of fairly tough information, and that makes them feel a little “rookie”. They have an absolutely safe, orderly and predictable life, and they need to be “cool” and go through challenges, to rise above fear, pity, and vulnerability. There are a lot of popular movies, games, and books about this now, and you can try on the actions of invulnerable heroes with psychopathic features.
PHD: Is the book story of the 19th century being repeated to some extent, when Tatyana Larina went “with a dangerous book” - with a novel, “imagining” its heroines, gaining living experience until gaining experience?
L.P.: Yes, the only difference is that an “extramarital kiss” will no longer impress anyone, and the level of “tin” and “extreme” in modern literature and cinema is constantly increasing.
PHD: But it is impossible to artificially create this initiatory environment for children in reality. As one grandmother told me in response to my remark that my granddaughters have a completely greenhouse environment: “I can't create artificial difficulties for them. As long as they have the opportunity to live in peace and without stress, they will live in such an atmosphere.”
L.P.: I don't know what to do about it myself. The level of tolerance is increasing. If earlier, in order to confirm to yourself and others that you were cool — you withstood some difficulties and didn't collapse, it was enough to “swim behind the buoys” to a small extent. Now, whatever you do, everything seems to be possible. This is the shady side of expanding freedom and tolerance. It turns out that when the boundaries of illegal things are pushed back, we need to do more and more extreme things to prove our cool, including initiating confrontation, which we talked about at the beginning of the conversation. If earlier it was enough to come home an hour late to face the consequences and feel like a rebel, now I don't know what to do. In other words, we are expanding our acceptance area, and we have to go further and further to gain this experience. This is a paradox.
PHD: Lyudmila, thank you for this interesting conversation.
(Photo by Lyudmila Petranovskaya from her article “Huts full of rubbish. How to protect children from harassment”, which is related to the topic of our conversation:http://spektr.press/izby-polnye-sora-kak-uberech-svoih-detej-ot-domogatelstv/)
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